Does anyone else see the irony in doc chopless posting a picture of an elephant taking a dump to describe the issues I raised with W's dismal track record?

The ELEPHANT is the REPUBLICAN MASCOT.....ha ha

the woman collecting the dukey is probably a Democrat - always having to clean up the Republican's stinky dudu

Now to address dougjr's points:

Your rebuttal is sincere and rational. Thank you for not resorting to personal potshots as seems to be the standard modus operandi here sometimes....

1. If you were to dig deeper you would find very strong evidence that points to a conspiracy to defraud the voters of Florida in 2000. Vast numbers of registered voters were not able to vote. The US became the laughing stock of democratic nations all over the world. International observers declared the elections in Florida deeply flawed. With the President's brother as Governor of the state, his campaign manager in charge of the state election board, and Supreme Court members appointed by Republican administrations, there was never going to be a legitimate investigation into the scandal. I have seen reports on the BBC that have estimated Gore the winner of Florida by almost 80,000 votes.

2. Yes the blame for 9/11 rests with the terrorists who committed the acts. Which begs the question - why is Bin Laden still free? Why did Bush order the secret escape of all Bin Laden family members inside the United States when all air traffic was still grounded? Why did Bush refuse to have any cabinet level meetings with his NSA chief Richard Clarke before the attacks? How is Clinton to blame for something that happened 8 months into the Bush administration?

3. I personally didn't believe the flimsy intelligence presented before the war started. I thought Colin Powell's appearance at the UN was a shameful joke. You are right, Hillary and Kerry should take responsibility for being completely caught up in the war hysteria and voting yes. It's inexcusable. I also believe he ordered intelligence manipulated, skewed, and fixed to bolster his case for war - and there is strong evidence to support this, ie Downing Street memos and Richard Clarke's sworn testimony. I have never trusted George W Bush on instinct. Too many of his buddies are profiteering from the war, it's no coincidence.

4. To me it's not an either/or choice between being "loved or safe" as you put it. Friends are a lot less likely to attack you than enemies. We are now seen as the biggest threat to peace in the world. Fundamentalists and extremists view attacking us a great challenge. It wasn't always this way. People in other nations used to like America. Invading and occupying other countries does not make us one bit safer, it's a senseless argument.

5. Kerry was a wimp, he should have looked harder.

6. The last opinion poll I saw from the Iraqi people is that 80% of the population wants all foreign armies off of their soil immediately. There has never been more military control over news coverage of a war in the history of reporting.

7. Comparing Lincoln to Bush ? Please.....

8. It's treason to out a CIA agent.

9. Most people of goodwill in the world have enough sense to know that the mature way to respond to senseless violence is to find those responsible and hold them accountable - not to respond with an escalations of more senseless violence as Bush has done. That's how Bush has eroded the goodwill the rest of the world had for us after we were attacked.

10. agreed

11. Disagree - that is precisely the role of government, to protect the nation's interests when individuals and businesses behavior is not working. We can't live without a clean environment.

12.
Quote:
I just wish all could benefit from it like I have.

Exactly my point. The economy is great - if you happen to be in the extreme upper class....

13. Agreed. I've been supporting Green Party candidates. The two party system is entrenched in corruption, it needs to be fixed.

14. I agree with your sentiment with limitations. Historical inequalities need to be addressed. A culture that accepts poverty as being an inescapable component of society is not a culture I respect. I want my country to treat ALL of it's citizens with dignity and respect - and I want that dignity and respect to be legislated and enforced. Otherwise - why even have a government?

15. The state of our health care system may not have anything to do with the Constitution, I don't know. It most definitely IS an ethical and moral barometer of what kind of people we are, what kind of society we are choosing to be. Do we want to live in a world where only the wealthy have access to basic human needs such as medical care? It is morally repugnant to me that the wealthiest nation in the history of the world does not care for it's own people.

Thanks again for having a legitimate and civil discussion. I think you and I generally have the same intentions for good, we just disagree on how to get there sometimes.